Every print subscription comes with full digital access Jon Nelson is living what he calls his “bonus life” after recovering from severe depression. Aidan Kahn By Laura Sanders 2 hours ago In this bonus episode of The Deep End, listen to an interview with Jon Nelson. He'll share how he's doing these days, now that his depression is gone. You'll hear about the work still ahead of him, which may be lifelong. And you'll hear about his plans for the future. Laura Sanders: This podcast deals with mental illness, depression and suicide. Please listen with care. Hi listeners, we're dropping into your feeds this week with a special bonus episode of The Deep End. Over the last six episodes, you've heard about some of the hardest parts of Jon Nelson's life. And some of the best parts too. He's struggled through severe depression. He volunteered for an experimental treatment that involved brain implants, and now he's relearning how to live. For this bonus episode, we're going to check in with Jon and see how he's doing these days. You'll hear more from him about what it was like to go through severe depression, and what it's like now that he's out from under it, now that he's living what he calls his bonus life. Welcome to The Deep End. I'm Laura Sanders. I called Jon in December of 2024, over two years out from his surgery. Here are parts of our conversation, including the part where he tells me that he's become friends with another person you might remember from the podcast, Amanda, the artist in New York City who had DBS surgery, too. Take a listen. Sanders: Hi, Jon. Jon: How is life? How you doing? Sanders: Good. I'm doing really well. How about you? Jon: I am too. I, a lot of, lot of stuff going on. My one colleagues says, a lot of momentum. I'll take momentum. Momentum is a good term. Sanders: Oh my, yes. Thank you for talking to me again. Are you tired of me yet? Jon: No, man, I'm, I'm all in, all the time. Your family OK? You guys doing OK? Sanders: Yeah, we're all good. We're in the Christmas, you know, mayhem crash landing into the new year. How about you? Jon: It's like, I just like Thanksgiving so much more, so less pressure, you know what I mean? It's like, the planning for a month for five minutes of opening gifts to like the crash, you know. Holidays are hard. I'm one of those where they're hard for me, so it's, they're less hard than they used to be, but still not like my favorite time of year. I've become super close friends with Amanda, who I saw for that video after mine, and I reached out to Figee, and was like, “Yo, I was like, send my information to her.” And dude, immediately, she reached out and we've become, we've come tight. I may have told you this, but I, she ended up sending me her artwork. I was like, “Dude, can I get some of your artwork?” And, she sent me the high-res PDFs so I have it in like all my kids' bedrooms. Sponsor Message Sanders: That's awesome. Which ones do you have in there? Jon: The subway one is like my favorite, so that's in my musicians, kids' room and one of them with the heart, it's Amanda with the heart, is in my other kid's room, and the third one is blanking me right now, but, dude, they're just beautiful, like every one I see, and then she did, did you know she did a DBS book? Like how incredible is that? Like, it's just so neat, you know, that just. I love creativity. I love people with passion and creativity, and you can't beat that with her. Sanders: Yeah, yeah. I mean, she, she sent that book and we used a few of the drawings to illustrate the, the new, the online version of this story, and it just like got me. You know, you can describe it in words and you can even hear her talking about it, but then seeing the way she kind of puts these colors together and like, designs it all, it's gorgeous. Jon: We do like a monthly support group I started three years ago and, you can just tell, I can tell with every person, like their posture, their skin complexion, their, how animated they are. I know exactly where they are. Sanders: Yeah. Is it Zoom? You meet on Zoom? Jon: Yep. It's actually, well, it's a Google Meet, but yeah, it's web conference and it started from my first article that I did about three years ago, actually three years ago now, it was December 2nd, 2021. That's weird. That was, yeah, three years ago. And that's, I just had so many people reach out to me that were similar situations, high functioning folks, suffering through hell. And so that was kind of the goal was, you know, kind of a high-functioning mental health support group of people, like-minded folks who are in theory, what people think is hiding it, where we are not hiding it, but we are struggling and it's been great. Just like sometimes two people join, sometimes 15 people join, you know, it's just each month is different and it's been really cool. Sanders: What kind of things do you talk about? Jon: So in that support group, it's check-ins. It's where, where are you at right now? What's, what's changed? What's, where's your mind? Situational stuff, you know. Guys, how would you move forward with this? Which, you know, relatability. It's just all peer-based support and with zero intent or goal other than to be around like-minded people and be able to get as, as, as healthy as we can. And just, you know, when you're dealing with a condition like we deal with, you know, being able to be around people who understand the hell and who also understand the stupidity of society for stigmatizing us, it's a really wonderful thing to feel quote unquote normal for a half a second. Sanders: Yeah, yeah, it makes a ton of sense. And now, if you don't mind, I'll shift into kind of the same question for you, you know, Where, where are you right now? How are you doing? Jon: So right now, I am just over two years from my surgery date. So I've been in remission for two years of this maniacally horrific disease. That does not mean that it is simple. It is easy. It's the exact opposite of that. I still have to work on it daily. I still have to be, maintain my, you know, try to keep my mood as neutral as it possibly can be. And, you know, one of the main things that I would say is, you know, Dr. Mayberg telling me that I needed to rehab my brain, and I didn't understand what that meant. And, you know, learning how to deal with sadness and kind of, have that being part of my life is extremely triggering for me still to this day. And I, you know, I went into the surgery, you know, hoping I would die. And, you know, coming out of it not dead, and coming out of it in remission from this disease is like winning the lottery. It wasn't even something that I thought was plausible. And so to come out of it and be disease free, is, is still earth-shattering to me. But then I never would have thought that you take it one step further. And I am dealing with trauma. You know, I'm dealing with trauma from living in hell for as long as I did. And being an empath, being a middle child, being an emotional person, which I know is shocking to say as a dude, but that's what I am. And so to have your emotions completely pulverized and twisted and tortured for a decade, you know, you truly focus in on, on all aspects. And so I have to learn how to live with something that is part of my life for the rest of my life, which is being sad. And so being sad is an absolute normal human emotion. And sadness, anger, happiness, like they all happen and they come into your body and they leave your body. And so, I know that it's going to leave, but guess what? My analogy would be, you know, an alcoholic who has to, every once in a while, take a very, very large sip of alcohol, of wine. It would be very challenging for them to deal with that. It's the exact same scenario that I have. I still have to feel sadness. And so it's actually been very helpful for me too, in trying to explain to people the hell of this disease is we all have to experience human emotions. It's the cycle of life. The disease of severe depression is, you take that, you take that emotion of general sadness, maybe it's at a three out of 10, 10 being death. And it's doubled, it's tripled, and it never leaves your body. So those bad moments that you have, imagine multiplying them by, you know, two, three, four, five, and it never leaves your body. And the only thing consistent that you have is every day it gets a little worse. That's what it's like to deal with severe depression in a treatment-resistant form. And so add that feeling and thought onto an additional flame of society being stupid and judging and blaming and ostracizing millions of people for having this condition that nobody has asked for just like every other disease. That's why everyone dies. That's why everybody suffers. And it's that simple. And so to think that I can go through this and prove to the world that this is a biological disease, I just have a circuit off of my brain. I have 23 million pulses going into my brain, every day. If I do not have that electricity, I go immediately back into this maniacally horrific disease. And so the fact that society judges, labels, blames, ostracizes me and millions of other people for something that we did not ask for is the reason that healthcare costs for this disease and all the other comorbid conditions exist. It's because of the stupidity of society for blaming, labeling, judging, ostracizing for a disease that we didn't ask for. You look at cancer, there is communal love, support, a hug. And that's exactly how it should be. It's beautiful. Like, let's take care of you, your family. We feel sorry for you. The exact opposite is serious mental illness. That's the problem. That's why everybody suffers and dies. Sanders: Yeah, I, I remember you telling me it's a non-casserole disease, and that really struck me. Jon: It is a one hundred percent non-casserole disease. Everybody lines up, everybody, everybody goes over to the person's house who's suffering from cancer. Meals are coordinated every single day. People are driving folks down for therapy and treatment. It's beautiful. It's the best part of humanity, and you could not get a more further from reality situation than serious mental illness, and it's absolutely appalling to me. It's unjust and it's right in everybody's face on why everybody suffers and dies. And people just continue to do it. So that's my mission for the rest of my life is to poke society, to let them know that their behavior is absolutely directly responsible for suffering and death. Sanders: You described your depression as feeling like a poison in your body. Do you feel that poison anymore? Jon: So my depression, the feeling that I had is, my two biggest symptoms before going into surgery were a constant desire for death, euphoria to die. I wouldn't, I'd thought about suicidal ideation as much as I was breathing. I mean, it was that pervasive and consistent in my life. And so that's my mind portion of it. And then my second portion of it was exactly what you said, physically ravaged my body. And so to explain that to you, think about the feeling that you get, the full-body sensation feeling you get when you have a fever, right? You have the aches, you have the shakes, you have the, it's just pure discomfort, right? Like this is awful. So take that feeling, that same physical overwhelming feeling, and it's just death and dread, just circulating through my body. Like I could feel it in my fingertips. I could feel it everywhere. And so to wake up from the surgery, and they turn the device on, and both of those are gone, immediately, like gone. It's still surreal to this day. And so when I think about the before and afters, I, I, there was just so many. I mean, one of them that is just so vivid to me is I got this massive tattoo before my surgery on my left arm. I've never gotten a tattoo. I wanted to kind of, you know, do something to, I don't know if the right word is commemorate, memorialize. I don't even know what it is. I guess symbolically, you know, represent my fight through this hell. And so I just, a big nature scene on my left arm, and that's because being out in nature, specifically around trees, you know, reduces symptoms of depression. So I was like, all right, let's bring it here. I didn't feel it. You know, they put, they took four days to get this thing on. And I didn't feel it. It wasn't pleasant. It wasn't unpleasant. It was just there. And I had to go back and get it touched up after my surgery, and I had to have her stop multiple times, cause I could feel again in my body. I could actually feel something other than the hell of this horrific disease. And so that's an absolute perfect example. Sanders: I wonder if there are any surprises that have come out of all of this. After going through the run-up to the surgery, the surgery itself, kind of this rehab portion. Were there any unexpected changes or anything that happened that surprised you? Jon: For sure. I think that I very quickly learned that I'm living a bonus life. And it's a lot of fun living a bonus life, because things that you typically would say, wouldn't say or you would think, but I don't know if I should say this or do this, I fully embrace those moments, you know? I fully embrace them, and I say what most people wouldn't. And that's mostly positive. That's some negative, and I enjoy that with my advocacy because I like poking. I like poking because I want you to think differently. And I will tell you the most, like similar, some of these things are kind of taboo, right? Oh, don't talk about mental illness in the work setting and blah blah blah. I do the opposite. I go straight at it hard. The more, the more raw that I am, the more pokey that I am, the more successful that I have become with my advocacy and with momentum. And there's not been one thing that I have done in this outside world of being in remission of depression and talking about it and being very open about it and being very raw, being very real, that has been negative in the slightest bit. It's been nothing but positive. Sanders: A bonus life. I love that phrase and that thought. Does it show up with your family? Do you feel like you're living a bonus life with your kids and your wife? Jon: A hundred percent. I owe everything to them. I owe everything to my wife, you know, she's just a rock, the most amazing person, you know, the only person that these horrific maniacal diseases are, are, are worse for than the person suffering is the caretaker, caregiver, and that was my wife. And so to be able to see the hell that she went through while watching the person that she loves, who I know I'm a good father, a good provider, a good husband, just deteriorate. And all those things are on her now. And she's her, her, her bandwidth is zero, and, you know, society is not helping her. Society is judging her too. And it's horrific. And so to be able to, to be able to see, you know, her in the scenario that we're in now, which is, we're out of it, you know, we're out of it. She's still cautious. It's been two years. She's still cautious. I'm still cautious. I'm always afraid, you know? Use your cancer remission. You know, I'm in remission, but I still gotta get checked and make sure it doesn't come back, you know? So we always will live with that fear, but yeah, I mean, just, just the the, the standard, the typical embrace. The hugs are different. The watching a show together is different. The being around the kids is different. You know, my kids, it's all they knew, right? They knew I'm a good dad. They knew they got to see me healthy dad prior, and they also had to see sick dad, and they knew that it wasn't me, they knew it was the disease, they truly did, you know, and and I talked to him about it all the time of, “Guys, how did this impact you?” And they're like, “It's all we knew. It was our life and it's great to have you back.” And so to come out of this on the other side and be able to have just genuinely enjoy your time together and have conversations and be able to throw a football with them again, you know, be able to take my daughter, she's turning 16, we're going over Christmas. I'm taking her on a dad-daughter trip to San Francisco and we're gonna drive down the coast to L.A. Like, do you know how beautiful that is? I mean, I, it's just stunning that I can do that now and enjoy every single moment, you know? Including the, every single minute in that car ride down and the laughter and the music. I couldn't do that before. Now I, I can experience joy in a healthy way and enjoy it tremendously, and grow very important relationships in my life. Sanders: Yeah, yeah, it does seem like just a qualitatively different thing to feel that way versus the absence of something awful. Yeah, yeah. Are you taking your daughter to where you used to live? Jon: When the kids turned five years old, and my wife and I were like, let's take them on a trip, like each individually, like mom, dad, kid trip. It's just a fun age, you know, he turned five and my my middle guy, I'll give an example, is like, I wanna go to New York City, and so we went to New York City and he's five years old out on, I still remember Park Avenue and 37th Street, holding his hand up, hailing a cab. You know, we're doing all the, you know, it's just was fun, right? It's like one of those moments where like they really can experience life and understand it and do some cool stuff. And so we just came up with this. My daughter's turning 16, and so my wife and I are like, let's do something like that. Like, let's give them another opportunity. And I happen to be extremely lucky, cause it works out perfectly for me to be able to take her. So we're just doing a solo trip. And so she could pick anywhere in the world, literally, we're like, where do you wanna go? What do you wanna do? And it really makes you realize how nostalgic people are for their origins, and she was born and raised out in San Francisco. She left when she was four, but it's still part of her identity. And so the fact that she picked going to San Francisco and driving down the coast and stopping at Santa Cruz and Half Moon Bay and Carmel and, you know, hitting, hitting L.A. It's pretty cool, you know? And so that's, that's, that's really what drove it is, you know, I think let's get back to my, my hometown and let's smile and see some beauty and make some great memories. And so, you know, my big thing with my kids is I always try to go to a high level in regards to what am I trying to achieve. And, you know, parenting is, is not easy. It's, it's, I always say you want to hug them 10 times a day and punch them 10 times a day, right? There's, there's ups and downs and it's, it's overall amazing. But, you know, being able to get your kids out of the house, like my focus is always on, you know, if you can have, you know, if you can be a good, independent person and you can be confident, I did my part and, you know, I'm very, very fortunate that, you know, my daughter is right there. And, you know, being able to help guide that and being able to play a part in making that happen is, is really, really fun for me. And that's what motivates me as a parent. Sanders: Yeah, that makes perfect sense, seeing them kind of launch in their own lives and, and knowing you did what you needed to do, and now they're going to go off on their own adventures. Jon: If you hit those two qualities, all the other ones come. That's why you gotta start high. Everything else will happen. Sanders: Shifting a little bit to the research, I wonder if you're still involved in the research project at all, and if so, what that looks like. Jon: So here's a human behavior thing that I find fascinating is we had to do two times a day, we had to commit to a journal, a video journal. We had to do eight minutes of brain scans. Essentially they would analyze my brain waves. We had to do multiple, multiple choice questions on our, on our feelings. We had to do that twice a day, so it was a commitment and, and that was something that was not a problem. Let's go. Like, this is what I gotta do for this, there's a lot of, a lot of to do's. We had to do our part. And at about six months, that turned into once a day. And then a couple of months later, it was once a week. And so I'm at that phase now where it's, it's once a week. But, but here's the challenge. The challenge is, it's harder to do once per week than it is to do twice a day every day. How wild is that, right? And so that's my challenge is like, I screw up and don't make my deadlines a lot. And so it's, you know, it's something that's always in the back of my head. And so the short answer is, is, yeah, I'll be connected to these guys for an extremely long time, and it's amazing. At some point I'll be stopping the kind of video journal and the brain activity, but I still meet with the psychiatrists on a quarterly basis, and it's more of a check-in. They're still fully available to me when I email. The humanity that this group has provided me is, is exceptional. And they're in my corner. You know, at some point I'm gonna need to change. I have the R plus S Medtronic investigational device in my chest. That's the pacemaker, and they have a new commercial grade of available device that I will have to get into my chest. So they'll basically cut me open and swap that out. It's a battery. They say pacemaker, but it's a battery. That's how I look at it. So I'll get the newest and greatest battery in there, and that's also something that will be included as part of the trial. I know Medtronic has provided those to them as part of this clinical trial. When you go through severe depression, serious mental illness in this country which is apparently the best country on the planet which I highly, highly, highly contest based off of going through this journey, and then you walk into a clinical trial environment like I did, I can't begin to tell you the difference, like how absolutely different they are, and how broken our mental health system is in this country. I had physicians looking at me in the eye. I had them telling me that they want to help me, that they know something's wrong with me, that they believe me, that they can fix me. I'm saved for sure by this medical technology in my brain, a hundred percent. But it's not just that. It's definitely that, but it's also their humanity. It's their empathy. It's how they talk to me. It's how they believe me. That is absolutely part of this, and that's where it needs to be all the time, especially with a disease, like with the, the diseases within serious mental illness. That's all we're dealing with is broken minds. So to be able to help, help a broken mind by being kind, costs no money. Looking at somebody in the eye costs zero money, nothing. You don't need millions of dollars of consultants to fix this problem. You need to create an environment that can get people into the healthcare system sooner. And you need to get the people who are in there. Guess what? When you're getting somebody a year into living through hell versus 10 years, again, I have no validation for this, but it's a pretty logical assumption to think, it'd be a hell of a lot easier to fix that after a year rather than 10 years. Sanders: Yeah, and it hits home when you talk about kind of the rehab portion of your brain, too. Like if you're trying to change after a decade of these patterns that you've adapted to and learned to live with versus a year of that, that rehab portion's gonna be a lot easier too. Jon: Absolutely, one hundred percent. And I, I didn't understand the significance of the rehab portion, and that's something for sure that I've taken out of this. And my initial thought was, dude, I'm good. I don't feel this disease all over my body and my mind isn't warped with constant suicidal ideation. That was naive of me, because I got to understand that it is an absolute journey. I need to continue to put the work in. I need to continue to not get super angry with certain situations before that would make me angry, that would put me right into a recurrence. And so I need to sit back and you know, not let certain situations bug me like they would as much as they typically do, right? I need to be very cognizant of my mood to keep it as neutral as possible to avoid any major ups or major downs. Sanders: You told me a while back you're still crabby. You were crabby, you're still crabby. Do you still feel crabby now? Jon: You know, irritability was probably the one characteristic that stayed similar. And so my, my joke about it, but it's probably true, is, you know, I'm just like I guess certain aspects of my life, I'm the cranky old dude, right? Like it just happens throughout life. You're tired, you're exhausted, you're going, being pulled in a million directions and you're parenting and then things don't stop. So yes, I do get irritable still, but you know, that's called being a human being. I'm not anywhere near perfect, but in general, my smiles are back more and I feel, I feel really good. Am I perfect? Nope. This, this, this, this surgery does not, does not cure life problems, but it sure, it sure eliminates and destroys a horrific disease that's in your body. Sanders: So when I visited your house, there were some jokes about hiding your charger and changing your settings, and I wonder if you all still joke about things that that are kind of in this realm. Jon: Yeah, you have to add humility and humor and laughter to all of this. And, you know, yes, a hundred percent. And, you know, a simple way to think of that, my, my wife saying after the first week of me being home, her line to the doctor was, “Is there any chance we can turn the volume down on this a little bit?” Because I'm back. I'm back with a force. And, you know, it's that, they say that with a big smile on their face. And you know, I, I, I joke around with my, you know, family, my daughter. I'm like, so what is it like when we weren't here this weekend, you know, myself and my boy, we were at like a hockey tournament, so it's like, “It's a lot quieter.” So like, that stuff's awesome, you know? Like, I mean, it's just, it's such a prime example of like what this disease does, this brain disease, that's what this is, you know. It just mutes you. It, it takes you away from everybody. It takes your core essence away. And so being able to have that back is great. And so my line to them all the time when they're busting my chops and, and, and having fun with this, which they should, is, you chose me. You chose me. It's not on me, dude. You picked me, guys. The kids didn't really. They're kind of forced in this scenario, but the wife did. Sanders: She totally did. I love it. Very true. You've done so much evocative explaining of what this felt like and what this disease has done to you, how it's affected you, how it's affected your family. I wonder if there's a way to explain to someone who's not felt this firsthand and may not have a family member or a loved one who's felt this. What would you say to them, to kind of sum up what this disease is like? Jon: To those folks who have no understanding of this, I will say a couple things. There's not many of you. You know, when I start talking about this publicly and speaking, there's always somebody. Either it's a friend or a family or them. There is a connection to somebody with lived experience, so they've gotten to see firsthand most of the time what this looks like. And for those who haven't, awesome. I'm so happy that you have not been exposed to it, and it's the most simplistic thing in the world. The symptoms of this disease, the brain disease of severe depression, the symptoms are a desire to die and a consumption of your body with hell. It's toxicity burning within your body. That's the symptom. The symptom of another neurological disease, Parkinson's, is shaking, right? It's tremors. You know, look at epilepsy. It's seizures, right? The symptoms are different, based off of every disease. The fact that society doesn't understand and questions and judges folks with severe depression is what makes them die, and the unfortunate portion of this is the major symptom of these are torture. And so that's what we have to understand, is that the people who have this horrific disease didn't ask for it, at all. And so being able to surround them with love and kindness like you do with every other disease, and let them know that you love them and you care for them, it's life-saving. Sanders: If we could shift to kind of the future now, I, I wonder if there's something you picture for yourself, you know, in, in the next year, in 2035? Where do you want to be? In 2050, where do you want to be? What's, what's on your long-term horizon? Jon: I've have a colleague of mine that has been, said something very cool to me that sums up where I am right now with my patient advocacy. I actually call it more activism, because I do wanna poke and I do want to make people feel uncomfortable, so that they can change their behavior, is you have a lot of momentum right now. And I like that I have a lot of momentum. I unfortunately, am not listening to Dr. Helen Mayberg, who after the trial said, “You need to take it easy. You need to not do too much.” Well, I'm not listening to her cause I'm doing a lot, and I'm, but here's the fun reason why, is, I am extremely motivated. I'm extremely passionate for this. There is a massive, massive, massive problem with a very simple solution, and I'm going to be in your face until the day that I die poking you and letting you know that you're absolutely wrong and that, you know, we have the most simplistic way that we can possibly fix this, the complete moronic world that we're in right now, which is simply by showing empathy and being kind to people with mental illness. Then we save, we save lives. We save suffering. Like, let's go. I'm all about it. And so when I look at 10 years from now, you know, in the last year, I have been so fortunate to be in the world that I've been in. I mean, being a part of your Science News piece, I was able to speak in the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine. I was able to participate in a congressional briefing for the neuroscience caucus in April. I've been able to, you know, lead multiple academics, physician conventions and sessions. I mean, every opportunity I get, I just smile, and I just say, “Let's go.” You know, phenomenal opportunity for more exposure, for more places to get the, the message out. So my long, my aunt always says to make a long story endless, to make a long answer endless, I will, I want to poke and prod and be at the point where people are like, “This dude, this dude, this dude is all in, like, all in.” And so my Pulverize the Stigma initiative I have that I've created, this is just my personal brand. I got it tattooed on me, right? Like I am officially all in on this. Sanders: Before we end, I wanna ask how Barbara is doing, how your kids are doing. What's the update with everybody? Jon: Kids are cruising. We got 6th grade, 8th grade, 10th grade, all so different, all so fun to figure out what makes, makes each one of them tick and support those passions and create those, you know, good values that we're trying to do as a family. And you know, my wife is, she's just a rock. So my, my world is is hectic and crazy and it's kind of chess pieces putting around everywhere to make things work, and it's, and it's really going well. And so to still have her be this rock of the family, which she is. I mean, it's not fair, moms and, moms get a lot put on them, you know, for, for the houses and the families. It's just true. I mean, it's just the reality, and it's not right, and we're doing everything we can to, to, to pull our weight and make a, make a bigger impact on this family, but my God, she is just the strongest person I know. She puts everybody else before her and, you know she's thriving right now at work. She's about to start a new job, which is something extremely excited for, at a new great company, and it's fun to see her smile and laugh. And you know, she had a day home from work yesterday, an unplanned day home from work, and you know, to be able to see her sitting on the couch drinking coffee watching the Today Show, is, it's like, doesn't happen. And so to be able to see her kind of being able to relax for a hot second is amazing and I value those moments tremendously. Sanders: This bonus life. Jon: Exactly, yeah. And being able to be home, and so her new job actually provides her an extra day off a week, which is, if anybody deserves it, oh my, it's her. And I'm very excited that she'll be able to have some alone time in the house without being pulled in a billion different directions. And that to me is happiness. Sanders: Is there anything else you'd like to add? Anything we haven't covered that you want to emphasize or highlight for people listening? Jon: Show empathy and be kind and save lives. It's not difficult. We're not anywhere near where we need to be, but just focus on that. Show empathy, acknowledge when people tell you that they're suffering, that you are sorry. Treat it like any other condition. I'm extremely sorry you're going through this. You're loved. And you proactively be kind to them. You don't ask them what you need. You come home, like I did one day, and my lawn was mowed by my neighbor. I'll never forget it, ever. It took him 15 minutes to do this. I'll never forget it. You know, being able to feel loved when your entire mind is being warped and you're being judged by society. Being able to have people do kind things for you, you'll never forget. And so it's not hard. Sanders: A beautiful sentiment to end on, just showing up for people we love. Jon: Not hard. It's all we need to do. Sanders: Yeah. Jon: Surround me with those people and we will have a good, a good world and a good life, and that's what we're trying to do. Sanders: Well, I want to thank you again for not just today, but the, the years now that you have spent with me patiently answering all my questions, indulging the stupid questions, explaining the things that I ask about over and over and over again. I've been so grateful for you and your whole family, and everyone who's who's kind of held my hand as we try to explore some of these ideas. So thank you very much. Jon: Well, here's my thank you to you. Thank you for paying attention to this. Thank you for making it an amazing online series, video series, podcast series to get the, phenomenal platform to get this message out because everybody should be doing this, and the fact that you are is absolutely commendable, and I, I will be a part of this and whatever you need from me for the rest of my life. Call, text, I'm there. Sanders: If you or someone you know is facing a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, call or text the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988. This is the Deep End. I'm Laura Sanders. If you liked this podcast, tell your friends. If you really like this podcast, leave us a review. It helps the show a lot. Send us your questions and comments at podcasts@sciencenews.org. The Deep End is a production of Science News. It's based on original reporting by me, Laura Sanders. This episode was produced by Helen Thompson and mixed by Ella Rowen. Our project manager is Ashley Yeager. Nancy Shute is our editor in chief. Our music is by Blue Dot Sessions. The podcast is made possible in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, the John S. James L. Knight Foundation, and the Burroughs Wellcome Fund, with support from PRX. Questions or comments on this article? E-mail us at feedback@sciencenews.org | Reprints FAQ Laura Sanders is the neuroscience writer. She holds a Ph.D. in molecular biology from the University of Southern California. We are at a critical time and supporting science journalism is more important than ever. Science News and our parent organization, the Society for Science, need your help to strengthen scientific literacy and ensure that important societal decisions are made with science in mind. Please subscribe to Science News and add $16 to expand science literacy and understanding. Science News was founded in 1921 as an independent, nonprofit source of accurate information on the latest news of science, medicine and technology. Today, our mission remains the same: to empower people to evaluate the news and the world around them. It is published by the Society for Science, a nonprofit 501(c)(3) membership organization dedicated to public engagement in scientific research and education (EIN 53-0196483). © Society for Science & the Public 2000–2025. All rights reserved. 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Advances in materials and architecture could lead to silicon-free chip manufacturing thanks to a new type of transistor. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission. Here's how it works. Researchers in China say they have created a new silicon-free transistor that could significantly boost performance while reducing energy consumption. The team says this development represents a new direction for transistor research. The scientists said that the new transistor could be integrated into chips that could one day perform up to 40% faster than the best existing silicon processors made by U.S. companies like Intel. This is according to a report in the South China Morning Post (SCMP). Despite that dramatic increase in power, the researchers claim that such chips would also draw 10% less power. The scientists outlined their findings in a new study published Feb. 13 in the journal Nature. Lead author of the study Hailin Peng, professor of chemistry at Peking University (PKU) in China, told SCMP: "If chip innovations based on existing materials are considered a 'short cut', then our development of 2D material-based transistors is akin to 'changing lanes'." The efficiency and performance gains are possible thanks to the chip's unique architecture, the scientists said in the paper, specifically the new two-dimensional silicon-free transistor they created. This transistor is a gate-all-around field-effect transistor (GAAFET). Unlike previous leading transistor designs like the fin field-effect transistor (FinFET), a GAAFET transistor wraps sources with a gate on all four sides, instead of just three. At its most basic level, a transistor is a semiconductor device found in every computer chip. Each transistor has a source, a gate and a drain, which allow the transistor to function as a switch. The gate is how a transistor controls the flow of current between the source and drain terminals and can act as both a switch and amplifier. Wrapping this gate around all sides of a source (or sources, as some transistors contain multiple) — instead of just three as in conventional transistors — leads to potential improvements in both performance and efficiency. Get the world's most fascinating discoveries delivered straight to your inbox. This is because a fully wrapped source provides better electrostatic control (as there is less energy loss to static electricity discharges) and the potential for higher drive currents and faster switching times. While the GAAFET architecture isn't itself new, the PKU team's use of bismuth oxyselenide as the semiconductor was, as well as the fact they used it to create an "atomically-thin" two-dimensional transistor. —1st-of-its-kind cryogenic transistor is 1,000 times more efficient and could lead to much more powerful quantum computers—New diamond transistor is a world-1st — paving the way for high-speed computing at the highest temperatures —Unique transistor 'could change the world of electronics' thanks to nanosecond-scale switching speeds and refusal to wear out 2D bismuth transistors are less brittle and more flexible than traditional silicon, the scientists added in the study. Bismuth provides better carrier mobility —the speed at which electrons can move through it when an electrical field is applied. It also has a high dielectric constant — a measure of a material's ability to store electrical energy — which contributes to the transistor's increased efficiency. Should this transistor be fitted into a chip that does prove faster than US-made chips by Intel and other companies, it could also allow China to sidestep current restrictions on buying advanced chips and tap into US chip-making by shifting to a wholly different manufacturing process. Alan is a freelance tech and entertainment journalist who specializes in computers, laptops, and video games. He's previously written for sites like PC Gamer, GamesRadar, and Rolling Stone. If you need advice on tech, or help finding the best tech deals, Alan is your man. Please logout and then login again, you will then be prompted to enter your display name. Quantum-inspired storage can store 100s of terabytes of data on a tiny crystal — with plans to make them into much larger discs Tiny AI chip modeled on the human brain set to boost battery life in smart devices Which states will see the March 29 solar eclipse — and which will see a 'double sunrise'? Live Science is part of Future US Inc, an international media group and leading digital publisher. Visit our corporate site. © Future US, Inc. Full 7th Floor, 130 West 42nd Street, New York, NY 10036.

March 23, 2025 NASA Astronauts Finally Return, Seals Hold Their Breath, and Penguin Poop Stresses Out Krill In this week's news roundup, two NASA astronauts finally return to Earth after nine unexpected months in space, gray seals hold their breath for more than an hour, and penguin poop panics krill. By Rachel Feltman, Fonda Mwangi & Alex Sugiura Anaissa Ruiz Tejada/Scientific American Rachel Feltman: Happy Monday, listeners! For Scientific American's Science Quickly, I'm Rachel Feltman. Let's kick off the week by catching up on some science news you may have missed. We'll start out with a space update that we've all been waiting about nine months for… [CLIP: NASA's SpaceX Crew-9 Re-Entry and Splashdown: “And splashdown Crew-9 is back on earth [cheering]”] If you're enjoying this article, consider supporting our award-winning journalism by subscribing. By purchasing a subscription you are helping to ensure the future of impactful stories about the discoveries and ideas shaping our world today. Feltman: Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams are finally back on Earth. The two NASA astronauts, who were meant to spend about a week on the International Space Station but have been there since June, splashed down in a SpaceX capsule last Tuesday evening. Welcome home, Butch and Suni! If you're wondering why it took so long to bring them back after their arrival vehicle's initial technical difficulties, the answer isn't very exciting—it basically came down to scheduling issues. First, NASA had to bump two other astronauts off an upcoming mission so that their return vehicle would have room for Butch and Suni. Once that mission made it to the station, it had to stay put until the next mission came up to relieve the prior crew of their duties. Space is hard, as folks so often say, and multiple ISS missions are bound to mean multiple delays. In other space news, last week scientists unveiled images of a planetary system 130 light-years away snapped by the James Webb Space Telescope. In an exciting first, the JWST was able to directly capture images of carbon dioxide gas on an exoplanet. That means JWST lives up to its promise of sussing out the chemistry of planetary atmospheres from a distance. These observations suggest that the four planets of the system, known as HR 8799, were likely formed through a process called core accretion. That process starts with the gradual formation of solid cores, which go on to attract gas from inside a protoplanetary disk. It's the same way Saturn and Jupiter formed. At 30 million years old or so, HR 8799 is a baby compared to our roughly 4.6-billion-year-old solar system, so studying these alien worlds could give us a glimpse into what our own gas giants looked like in their early days. And speaking of early days, when it comes to JWST the best is still yet to come. The space telescope was designed to last for at least five years, but the hope is that it can make it more than 20. Now let's catch up with the Environmental Protection Agency. In last week's news roundup, I outlined EPA head Lee Zeldin's plans to undo heaps of environmental legislation. I also mentioned his purported plan to cut 65 percent of the agency's costs. Last week, thanks to documents reviewed by Democrats on the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology, we got a clearer picture of those prospective cost-cutting measures. The New York Times reported last Monday that the EPA's plan calls for firing up to 1,155 scientists, as well as getting rid of the Office of Research and Development. This is the EPA's main science arm, which conducts research on environmental issues such as pollutants and their effects on humans. Zeldin said in a Fox Business appearance on Tuesday that the EPA was still “working through” cost-cutting decisions. Also on Tuesday, Representatives Valerie Foushee, Deborah Ross and Zoe Lofgren, who are all members of the House Science, Space and Technology Committee, put out a joint statement condemning the supposed plans. They argued that, considering the EPA's obligation to use the best-available science in making its decisions, eliminating its main science branch would be illegal. If you like having clean air and water, you might consider calling up your own congressional reps to ask them to take a stand too. Meanwhile last week President Donald Trump posted on Truth Social, a platform he owns, that he was authorizing his administration to “immediately begin producing energy with BEAUTIFUL, CLEAN COAL.” “Clean coal” is a nebulous term referring to technologies that make coal less polluting than it would be without those technologies. But there's no way of handling coal that makes it a clean form of energy. There are a few facilities that now use carbon capture technology to mitigate coal's impact on the environment, but this technology is expensive and lemme be very clear about this it doesn't turn coal into a zero-carbon energy option. Coal is the most polluting source of energy. It releases heaps of carbon dioxide, contributes to environmental issues like acid rain and smog, and can cause lung disease. On Truth Social, President Trump claimed that “Environmental Extremists” and “Thugs” had allowed other countries, particularly China, to gain economic advantages over the U.S. by opening new coal plants. While it's true that China has opened new coal plants in recent years, it's worth noting that the country's percentage of electricity generated from coal is actually on the decline. It's also worth noting that last Wednesday the World Meteorological Organization reported that atmospheric carbon dioxide levels are at an 800,000-year high. So yeah, consider calling your reps! For no particular reason, I could use a little bit of a breather. Let's just talk about animals for the rest of the episode. First, have you ever wondered how seals avoid drowning? You totally should wonder that cause gray seals, for instance, can hold their breath for more than an hour at a time. A study published last Thursday in Science could help explain how. It turns out that gray seals can seemingly sense how much oxygen is in their blood at any given moment. Like most mammals, humans don't necessarily react to a lack of oxygen in the air. We're much more sensitive to an uptick in our carbon dioxide levels, which prompts us to breathe more. If a gray seal started to get that panicky air-hunger feeling as soon as the saturation of CO2 in their blood started going up while they were holding their breath, they'd never get anything done. But it seems they've got a trick for that: just cutting out the middleman and sensing oxygen directly. Scientists tested this by giving seals air with different levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide before the animals went for their dives. The researchers found that seals would dive for longer after inhaling more oxygen-rich air and would cut their dives short after getting less oxygen. When the seals inhaled air with high levels of carbon dioxide, it didn't really change their dive length. While this study looked at gray seals, they're not even the most accomplished divers in the seal world. The northern elephant seal can dive for up to two hours at a time. It's even possible that this oxygen-sensing trait came from a fairly distant ancestor that is applies to more than just mammals. After all, the emperor penguin can stay underwater for up to 27 minutes. And speaking of penguins it turns out their poop causes a big ruckus among zooplankton world. In a study published last Thursday in the journal Frontiers in Marine Science, researchers zoomed in on the behavior of Antarctic krill. These tiny, shrimplike creatures are crucial members of the food chain, so they spend a lot of their time trying not to get eaten. Scientists already knew that krill used their sense of smell to react to things like food and pollution, so naturally they thought, “Why not try penguin poo?” Sure enough, when exposed to seawater containing guano in a tank, the little critters swam faster, pivoted direction more, and ate less algae. You might be asking yourself why scientists are interested in this crap. Like literally specifically this crap. But between krills' spot on the food chain and their ability to sequester carbon by eating algae, these little guys can have a big impact on the ocean. Krill are already changing their behaviors due to climate change, sea ice loss and ocean acidification by moving further south. And if you need a pick-me-up this week, just take a moment to be grateful you aren't on penguin doody duty: researchers had to collect a couple ounces of the stuff for the study, and apparently it smells like rotten shellfish. That's all for this week's news roundup. We'll be back on Wednesday to talk about the changing science of invasive plants. And stay tuned for a very special video episode on Friday. We're giving you a tour of the cutting-edge lab where MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] scientists study and fabricate stuff at the nanoscale. Science Quickly is produced by me, Rachel Feltman, along with Fonda Mwangi, Kelso Harper, Naeem Amarsy and Jeff DelViscio. This episode was edited by Alex Sugiura. Shayna Posses and Aaron Shattuck fact-check our show. Our theme music was composed by Dominic Smith. Subscribe to Scientific American for more up-to-date and in-depth science news. For Scientific American's Science Quickly, this is Rachel Feltman. Have a great week! Rachel Feltman is former executive editor of Popular Science and forever host of the podcast The Weirdest Thing I Learned This Week. She previously founded the blog Speaking of Science for the Washington Post. Fonda Mwangi is a multimedia editor at Scientific American. She previously worked as an audio producer at Axios, The Recount and WTOP News. She holds a master's degree in journalism and public affairs from American University in Washington, D.C. Alex Sugiura is a Peabody and Pulitzer Prize–winning composer, editor and podcast producer based in Brooklyn, N.Y. He has worked on projects for Bloomberg, Axios, Crooked Media and Spotify, among others. Learn and share the most exciting discoveries, innovations and ideas shaping our world today. Follow Us: Scientific American is part of Springer Nature, which owns or has commercial relations with thousands of scientific publications (many of them can be found at www.springernature.com/us). Scientific American maintains a strict policy of editorial independence in reporting developments in science to our readers. © 2024 SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, A DIVISION OF SPRINGER NATURE AMERICA, INC.ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

by Sukanya Charuchandra | Mar 24, 2025 Some 5% to 18% of women worldwide suffer from a condition called polycystic ovary syndrome, a hormonal disorder that can cause irregular periods, cysts on the ovaries, difficulty with fertility, and has been linked to cardiovascular and metabolic issues. Despite years of uncertainty about what causes polycystic ovary syndrome, a groundbreaking new study suggests that high hemoglobin levels may play a key role in its development. But the implications go beyond just polycystic ovary syndrome — elevated hemoglobin levels have also been linked to serious health conditions like diabetes and heart disease, as hemoglobin is responsible for transporting oxygen through the blood. While previous small, limited studies have alluded to some connection between polycystic ovary syndrome and hemoglobin levels, this new finding brings us closer to understanding a potential cause. “It seemed like there might be a connection, a missing piece of the puzzle, and we wanted to investigate if hemoglobin could play a role,” said Guiquan Wang, a researcher at Xiamen University in China in an email. 20,602 women with an average age of 31 and who were being treated for fertility issues were included in Wang's study. Of this population, 3,732 women (roughly 18%), were diagnosed with polycystic ovary syndrome. When the researchers analyzed their hemoglobin levels, they noted a distinct association, with women with higher levels being more likely to also have polycystic ovary syndrome. Even higher levels within the normal range for hemoglobin, which is between 110 to 150 g/L, were linked to worse odds. For every 10 g/L rise in hemoglobin, women had a 22% greater likelihood of experiencing polycystic ovary syndrome, while also showing high levels of male sex hormones, such as testosterone. After establishing this correlation, Wang and his team wanted to explore the possibility of a causal link — a direct cause-and-effect relationship between two factors. They used a statistical method called Mendelian randomization to determine if genetic variants that influence hemoglobin levels were also linked. “Because these genetic variations are randomly assigned before birth, they help us figure out if the association we saw is truly causal and not just due to other factors,” said Wang. “This analysis confirmed that genetically higher hemoglobin levels increased PCOS risk.” Moreover, higher hemoglobin levels were also linked to higher testosterone levels. By identifying specific gene variants linked to hemoglobin levels, the researchers were also able to discover particular biological pathways that appeared to be crucial for the link between hemoglobin levels and polycystic ovary syndrome. One of the key pathways they identified is responsible for how cells react to oxygen levels. Building on this, the researchers found a few important genes that help explain the link between hemoglobin levels and polycystic ovary syndrome. These genes are also connected to the control of testosterone levels, which play a role in the condition. Next, the researchers wanted to see if any of the implicated genes could make for therapeutic targets. “We used databases to check if these genes are already targeted by existing medications or if they are considered ‘druggable' – meaning it's biologically feasible to develop drugs that can affect them,” explained Wang. “This helps us prioritize which genes might be most promising for developing new treatments.” Once the researchers identified these genes, they wanted to see if they actually influenced women with polycystic ovary syndrome. When they compared the activity of these genes in the blood and ovary cells of women with and without the condition, they found that the genes were more active in women with polycystic ovary syndrome. They also discovered that the levels of these genes in the blood were connected to higher testosterone levels. While the researchers want to tease apart the specific biological mechanisms that are likely causing polycystic ovary syndrome, the link between hemoglobin levels and polycystic ovary syndrome could be more immediately useful for diagnoses. “Hemoglobin levels, which are routinely measured in blood tests, could potentially be used as an early marker to identify women at higher risk of polycystic ovary syndrome,” said Wang. “This could allow for earlier interventions and preventative strategies.” Understanding lifestyle factors and investigating therapeutic targets remain other goals for the team. “It's still early days, but our research provides a strong rationale for exploring these therapeutic targets,” concluded Wang. Reference: Guiquan Wang, et al., Multiomics and Systematic Analyses Reveal the Roles of Hemoglobin and the HIF-1 Pathway in Polycystic Ovary Syndrome, Advanced Science (2025). DOI:10.1002/advs.202411679 Feature image credit: Unsplash ASN Weekly Sign up for our weekly newsletter and receive the latest science news directly to your inbox. Sign up for our weekly newsletter and receive the latest science news. Related posts: A new nanocarrier-based cancer vaccine used for the treatment of an aggressive and lethal form of skin cancer has been tested on mice, showing promising results. A nanoparticle targets mitochondria in cancer cells, offering a promising new strategy to tackle chemotherapy resistance tumor spread. Scavenging harmful reactive oxygen species, this new biomaterial reduces inflammation and promotes nerve regeneration in spinal cord injury. The system detects biomarkers for life-threatening diseases, such as heart attacks and cancer, enabling timely medical intervention. Scientists have developed a marker pen to deliver tetrodotoxin, a powerful neurotoxin found in pufferfish, to treat severe skin pain. Scientists integrate light therapy and antibiotics into a single platform to help the body create its own tumor vaccine.

Fossil fuels powered the industrial revolution. Would aliens need a similar power source to jump-start a technical revolution? When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission. Here's how it works. The burning of fossil fuels — coal, oil and gas — propelled humanity into the industrial revolution, remaking civilization in its wake. Gasoline powers many of the cars we drive; coal and natural gas are central to global energy. But if aliens were building their own society, would they have to go down the same path as humanity, relying on fossil fuels to build their advanced civilization? Or could they find an alternative? To build a modern civilization, aliens would likely need to use a source of energy that's just as abundant as fossil fuels, said Lewis Dartnell, an astrobiologist and author of "The Knowledge: How to Rebuild Our World from Scratch" (Penguin Press, 2014). It would be hard for them to simply bypass the production of fossil fuels, he noted. Dartnell drew a parallel with humans: In the 18th century, the world entered the industrial revolution by tapping into what appeared to be a limitless source of energy. Coal burned longer and produced more power than wood and charcoal. "Prior to that, energy was the fundamental limitation on how much you could do," he said. "It would limit how much you could mine and move things around, what you could build, and what you could make." The question of whether humans could have bypassed fossil fuels to reach alternative energy sources is "somewhat of a chicken-and-egg dilemma," Dartnell told Live Science. For instance, producing solar panels requires silicon, and extracting and refining this element demands a significant amount of energy. Related: How do we turn oil into plastic? The easiest way for intelligent aliens to create fuel would be to start by burning stuff, like humans did, until they can move to other sources of energy. They could perhaps harness the light of a star or of the kinetic energy of the wind. But wind energy on its own would not create the high temperatures needed for the smelting, forging and casting of metals, which would be needed for industrialization, Dartnell said. Get the world's most fascinating discoveries delivered straight to your inbox. Meanwhile, hydropower would only work if the planet had significant amounts of accessible liquid, which most planets we've found don't possess, added Seth Shostak, an astronomer and director of the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) Institute. Scientists still haven't found a planet with abundant oxygen in its atmosphere, though trace amounts have been found on Mars, Venus and Jupiter's moon Europa. Oxygen is the key ingredient in burning fossil fuels because it enables combustion, which is what releases the energy stored in coal, oil and gas. Fossil fuels are created from life — they're the transformed remains of plants and animals that lived hundreds of millions of years ago. Dartnell suggested that plate tectonics are a crucial part of the puzzle of how these life forms came to exist. "There's good reason to suspect that in order to have intelligent life on an Earth-like planet, you need to have plate tectonics to regulate the climate for long periods of time," he said. A 2022 study by researchers at the University of Sydney reported how Earth's tectonic plates move carbon between the deep Earth and the surface, forming what they call a "carbon conveyor belt." This process is key to maintaining Earth's "Goldilocks" climate, making the planet habitable, according to the study. What's more, plate tectonics also results in continental drift and the creation of conditions that produce large amounts of coal, a fossil fuel, he added. Put another way, plate tectonics can help pave the way for life and create conditions to help it become fossil fuels; it can also create ideal conditions for life that may become intelligent enough to harness those fuels. "In a sense, you get a two-for-one," Dartnell said. "If you have a planet with active plate tectonics, that regulates the climate, which allows for the evolution of intelligent complex life." Scientists have yet to find another planet with active plate tectonics. Nor have they found fossil fuels in space. What they have discovered, however, is evidence of fossil fuels' chemical building blocks: hydrogen and carbon. Approximately 75% of the universe's mass is composed of hydrogen, said Shostak. Additionally, scientists have found a field of liquid hydrocarbons on Saturn's moon Titan. Intelligent aliens could, hypothetically, attempt to burn these elements to produce energy. —How would we give aliens directions to Earth? —What messages have we sent to aliens? —What could aliens look like? Of course, aliens aren't necessarily bound by the same constraints as humans, and our imagination often limits us to thinking in terms of a human timeline. "It's hard for us to predict what the aliens might do," Shostak told Live Science. It's like asking Julius Caesar what he thought the Romans would be doing with oil in 2025, when they were only using small amounts of oil for lamps. "Julius would probably have some ideas, all based on Roman knowledge," he said. "He would completely miss the [mark]. You have to keep that in mind." An intelligent alien civilization could be nothing like what we expect, Shostak added. While aliens would likely need an abundant energy source to advance their civilization, who's to say what form that energy would take? The answer could lie beyond human understanding. Sara Hashemi is a journalist and fact-checker covering environmental justice, climate and the intersection between science and society. Her work has appeared in Sierra, Smithsonian Magazine, Maisonneuve and more. She has a master's degree in science journalism from NYU. Please logout and then login again, you will then be prompted to enter your display name. Extraterrestrials quiz: Are you an alien expert, or has your brain been abducted? If life can exist in your stomach, it can exist on Mars. Here's what it might look like. China's new 2D transistor could soon be used to make the world's fastest processors Live Science is part of Future US Inc, an international media group and leading digital publisher. Visit our corporate site. © Future US, Inc. Full 7th Floor, 130 West 42nd Street, New York, NY 10036.